פרוטוקולים/ועדת קליטה/1467

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ועדת העלייה, הקליטה והתפוצות - 3.11.1999

פרוטוקולים/ועדת קליטה/1467
ירושלים, ד' בתשרי, תשס"א
3 באוקטובר, 2000

הכנסת החמש עשרה נוסח לא מתוקן
מושב שני

פרוטוקול מס'
מישיבת ועדת העלייה, הקליטה והתפוצות
שהתקיימה ביום ד', כ"ד בחשון התש"ס, 3 בנובמבר 1999, בשעה 10:20

חברי הוועדה: היו"ר נעמי בלומנטל
ויקטור בריילובסקי
יצחק גאגולה

פייר מונוד, שגריר שוויץ בישראל
מיניט מונוד, רעיית שגריר שוויץ בישדראל
דניס פלדמייר, קונסול שוויץ בישראל
נטליה בוש-קולייר, מזכיר ראשון, שגרירות שוויץ בישראל
זיוה פוקס, הקונגרס היהודי העולמי
חיים רוזן, המשרד לקליטת העלייה
עו"ד אליהו שעשוע, איל"ר, ג'וינט ישראל
נפתלי לביא, איל"ר
נח פלוג, מרכז הארגונים של ניצולי השואה בישראל
אנה איסקובה, יועצת ראש-הממשלה לקליטה ושילוב חברתי ותרבותי

וילמה מאור

חבר המתרגמים בע"מ














ס ד ר ה י ו ם

השינויים הפוליטיים בשוויץ והשלכותיהם האפשריות על מצב היהודים שם
הצעה לסדר של חברת הכנסת נעמי בלומנטל


השינויים הפוליטיים בשוויץ והשלכותיהם האפשריות על מצב היהודים שם
הצעה לסדר של חברת הכנסת נעמי בלומנטל

אנחנו פותחים את ישיבת ועדת העלייה, הקליטה
והתפוצות בהשתתפות שגריר שוויץ בישראל, מר מונוד. אני רוצה לברך את רעייתו שהצטרפה אליו.

כבוד השגריר, הזמנו אותך לדיון בעקבות השינויים הפוליטיים שחלו בשוויץ לאחר הבחירות האחרונות שהתקיימו ב24- באוקטובר, כך שהשינויים הם חדשים וזה מכבר באו.

רצינו לשמוע את עמדתה של ממשלת שוויץ ובאילו צעדים בדעתה לנקוט לנוכח עליית כוחה של מפלגה בשם מפלגת העם השוויצרי, שבראשה עומד מר בלוכר, אדם שבעבר התבטא ואפילו כתב מכתב שמצדד במכחיש שואה.

אני רוצה לומר שכידוע לך בישראל יושבים רבים מניצולי השואה, גם כאן בישיבה של הוועדה שלנו, וגם סבי וסבתי נספו בשואה. אנחנו מודאגים אולי יותר מעמים אחרים, אולי יותר ממדינות אחרות, מדבריו של אדם כמו מר בלוכר שאמר שמכחיש שואה ראוי להערכה. דברים אלו מדאיגים מאוד.

אנחנו מצפים מממשלת שוויץ, מן העם השוויצרי שיעשה את חשבון הנפש ויפעל לכך גם במערכות החינוך השונות וגם בקרב הציבור – אם זה על-ידי מוזיאונים, אם על-ידי דיונים שיתקיימו. אנחנו יודעים שממשלת שוודיה וראש ממשלת שוודיה, לאור הדאגה הגדולה שהוא מרגיש עקב עליית כוחם של כוחות אנטישמיים בתוך מדינתו, יזם כנס בינלאומי עם ראשי מדינות מכל רחבי תבל סביב נושא השואה. ולכן אני חושבת שיש מה לעשות והיינו מצפים שלנוכח התופעות האלה ממשלת שוויץ תנקוט צעדים משמעותיים בכיוון של הבעת הדאגה ובכיוון של חיזוק חינוך בעיקר של בני הנוער.

אני רוצה לתמוך בדברי היושבת-ראש. כאשר
רואים מה שקרה באוסטריה ולאחר מכן מה שקרה בשוויץ, זה מאוד מדאיג אותנו ואנחנו פשוט רוצים להבין למה מתקיימות התופעות האלה, למה חמישים שנה אחרי סוף מלחמת העולם השנייה עוד פעם מדברים על אנטישמיות, עוד פעם עולות מפלגות מאוד קרובות למפלגות נאציות והן עכשיו מתחזקות יותר ויותר. רצינו לדעת מה דעתו של השגריר ולמה אפשר לצפות בעתיד הקרוב, האם זו מגמה חזקה ובעוד זמן מה נראה אירופה אחרת, או אתה חושב שזו איזושהי תופעה זמנית ואקראית. מאוד מעניין לדעת את דעתך.

אדוני השגריר, השאלות שאני רוצה לשאול לאור
התופעות האלה באוסטריה ובשוויץ, ולא ידוע מה יהיה במקומות אחרים לאור ההתפתחויות האלה, מה הם הצעדים שהממשל בשוויץ ינסה ומתכנן לעשות כתוצאה מהתופעה הזאת ואני מתכוון להסברה, כינוסים שונים וכדומה. האם באמת אצלכם נדלקה נורה אדומה או שאתם חושבים לעבור על זה לסדר היום ולהשאיר את התופעה הזאת להתפשט וכפי שהיא.

אנחנו גם שואלים את עצמנו. דובר על כך שעקב
הפניות שלנו והדרישות להחזיר את מה שנגזל על-ידי גורמים בשוויץ מקורבנות השואה, עקב הפניות והדרישות של השבת הרכוש והמשאבים לאותם נגזלים, קורבנות השואה, האם גם זה הביא לעליית כוח לאומני כמו כוחו של בלוכר. אם זה אמנם כך, אני רוצה להביע את שאט הנפש שלנו מכך שיצא שאותו נגזל ואותו קורבן, מקורבן הופכים אותו למי שאשם במקום שזה יהיה להפך. לכן גם בכיוון הזה, אין ספק שניתן לעשות הסברה גדולה אבל תלוי איך מציגים את הדברים. גם על כך הייתי רוצה לשמוע את עמדתך.

שאלה לשגריר. מה ההסבר הפנים-שוויצרי
לגידול כל כך גדול שלא היה מקובל בבחירות מאז קיימת מלפני עשרות שנים אותה קואליציה, לגידול כל כך רציני של הקולות שקיבלה אותה מפלגה שבכל-זאת מזוהה עם בלוכר שהיה הדובר הראשי שלה והאישיות הבולטת ביותר באותה מפלגה, שהיא נתפסת כמפלגה לאומנית ומפלגה נגד זרים וכולי. מה הניתוח הפנים שוויצרי לסיבות שזה קרה.

Thank you very much Mrs. Blumenthal, thank you to all the members of the Knesset committee, thank you to you for having invited me here. Also I would like to greet all the other invitees to the ladies and gentlemen from the press who have joined us this morning and I am delighted to have this possibility to share some views with you.
I consider this meeting as a very welcome element on the ongoing dialogue between our two countries on all questions of common interest and I would like also to say here before I start actually with the subject that the Swiss authorities have always been willing to conduct a dialogue with the Israeli authorities about all the topics of common interests and the evolution of our bilateral relations. Switzerland is very attached to direct contact between members of parliaments of our respective countries. These contacts have been very intensive in the past and the Swiss parliament wishes to continue them in the future. The committees for external relations in both chambers of our parliament hope to receive soon a Knesset delegation in Switzerland. The last one was in 1997 in the summer, when it was the celebration of the 100 years of the first Jewish World Congress in Basle.
Now, you have put to me some questions, but I have to say and to state right from the beginning that as a representative of the Swiss government, I cannot make any comments of political nature on the results of a democratic election which took place in my country on the 24th October.
Many of the questions, two of the first questions you gave me were questions where you put Austria and Switzerland together. When the Knesset sent its first invitation, it was to speak together with m y Austrian colleague, but I talked to him and we discussed the matter. The situations and the political systems in both countries are very different and to amalgamate them would not help you, members of the Knesset to make the objective picture about the results of the elections in Switzerland. My objective precisely here is to give you some facts and some figures, which will hopefully give you the possibility to make up your mind about the real situation as we see it in Switzerland today. I thank you Mrs. Blumenthal to have accepted my request to split the two things. I am just sorry because the speaker of the Knesset could not stay any longer, and I would have appreciated it if he could have stayed with us for that discussion.
Since conclusions drawn without taking all the facts into consideration might be biled. I would like to take this opportunity to underling the facts that in my opinion are not always given the importance they deserve. But maybe a couple of words before about the purpose of the general elections in Switzerland. It was to renew all the 200 seats of the National Counsel for a four-year term. The National Counsel in Switzerland is the house of the representative of the people. Each canton in Switzerland, you know we have the federal system, we have 20 cantons and 6 half cantons. So each canton and half cantons are an electoral constituency and the election is based on a proportional representation, except in cantons and half cantons that can have only one representative due to their small population. We count that in the National Counsel, we have approximately one representative for 30,000 people that is about the proportion. We have a few of these cantons we have only one representative. So in that case the election is not on the proportional system, but it is on the majority system.
The election also had a purpose to renew for four years the most of the 40 seats of the other chamber of the parliament, which is the Counsel of States. It was to renew 40 out of the 46 of those seats. The Counsel of States is roughly comparable to the US Senate. Each canton have two seats in it, each half canton have one seat. The choice of the electoral mode for the senators is the prerogative of the cantons, as long as it is a democratic system. In most cases the majority system is applied. The National Counsel of the House of the Representatives and the Counsel of States have exactly the same legislative powers, there is no difference.
I wish to recall here another distinctive feature of the Swiss political system, namely, the Institution of Referendum. The referendum enables the public to have their say about any federal legislation or general decrease. A minimum of 50,000 signatures from electors or 8 cantons in the parliament can request a referendum within 90 days after the publication of any such measures, legislative measures.
If there is a change, a proposed change in the constitution, the referendum is compulsory in any case. So this Referendum Institution naturally safeguards the people against any abuse by the legislator, and this is very important to know this.
Now, some relevant facts about the elections on Sunday October 24th. The participation to the vote was 43.3%. For the previous election in 1995 t was 42.2%, so we can see that it is a low participation, but in Switzerland it is not at all unusual.
But the first conclusion we take that the political map resulting from the votes does not necessarily represent that of the Swiss population as a whole. I give you some papers and I would like you to refer to this table here that gives the percentages of votes realized by the parties after the last election and the changes compared to the previous one. If I take only the four main parties, you will see that on the left there is a Radical Democratic Party made 19.93% of the vote. The Christian Democratic Party made 15.77% of the vote. The Social Democratic Party made 22.48% of the vote and the Swiss People’s Party made 22.56% of the vote.
But now if you compute this figure with the participation rate of the voters you reach totally different image in the sense that 8.6% of the electorate as a whole have voted for the Radical Democrats, 6.8% for the Christian Democrats, 9.7% for the Social Democrats and 9.8% for the People’s Party.
Concerning the further results of the election for the Counsel of States, the Senate, the results we have so far, they are provisional since a second round is need in 8 canton and one half canton to elect their representative, their senator there. You will see there a small paper also, which I gave you, which gives provisional results for the time being and we will have the final results at the end of this month in November, then when all the cantons and half cantons will have proceeded to the second round of the election.
The race in this is still very very open, but we know the candidates and we know their party affiliation and I can tell you there will be no big changes in this counsel. Again I repeat what I said before; both counsels have exactly the same legislative power.
Now, as to the results for the election in the National Counsel, I give you also another table here, which is interesting, which gives the distribution of seats to the political parties and the changes in 1999 compared to 1995. So we note, of course, a very strong showing of the Swiss People’s Party whereas the three other main parties register only minor changes. But we note also that one of the smaller far right wing party who is even more to the right as the Swiss People’s Party has disappeared altogether from the parliament, losing all its 7 seats, it was a Swiss party Ovli Docti or Foli Bati, I don’t know what is the exact translation in English, and we note also that another right wing party, the Swiss Democrat, here on this chart you have the one called the FBS, which is the Swiss Party for Liberty who had before 7 seats, now has no seats. A bit further to the right on the chart you have this party called Esdei Sweizer Democratin who had 3 deputies, it was a number of repetition of seats, a number of deputies and now have only one and these were two far right parties.
Here we have obviously a disaffection of the electorate from this type of parties, which means also some kind of realignment towards the center, possibly through the absorption by the Swiss People’s Party, but this, of course, we don’t know.
Before I speak about this party, I would like to say a few words about our system of government. Our government is called the Swiss Federal Counsel. It is composed of 7 federal counselors, who are our own 7 ministers in the cabinet, we don’t have 24. They system of government is so far a large coalition of the four main parties. We like to call it the magic formula, and the present political structure of the Federal Counsel of our government, of the cabinet exists without being changed since 1959 with the following structure: Two social democrats, two radical democrats, two Christian democrats and one representative of the Swiss People’s Party. Nowadays the minister representing this Swiss People’s Party is Mr. Adolf Ogie, who is our Minister of Defense since the late 80s, I think 1987 or something like that. If I am not mistaken he is the oldest member of the Swiss Federal Counsel, now the longest serving member of the Swiss Federal Counsel today.
Both chambers of the parliament, that means the National Counsel and the Counsel of State will sit together, forming what we call the Federal Assembly, on the 15th December to re-elect the Federal Counsel, because the election of the Federal Counsel is made by both chambers of the parliament sitting together. Most observers of the political scene in Switzerland do not expect any change in the composition of the Federal Counsel after these elections.
Finally, I would like to give you a few information, the one I can give you about the Swiss People’s Party. I have circulated here in English a summary of their platform, which was their electoral platform for the recent election. So what I can say about this party is the following: The party exists since the beginning of the century, originally under another name, it was in the beginning called the Party of the Farmers, the Artisans and the Bourgeois. It was traditionally an agrarian party.
This party joined the government, it means the Federal Counsel for the first time in 1929. The first minister in our cabinet belonging to this party was Mr. Rudolf Minger in 1929. Since that time that means since now 70 years this party has been constantly within the coalition in the government, never been out.
Now as to Mr. Fisserbocher, which you are represented as the President of this party now, Mr. Fisserbocher is a leader of the Zurich branch of the canton of Zurich branch of the Swiss People’s Party. He is not the national President. The national President is Mr. Oli … As to Mr. Blocher is generally considered as belonging to the right wing of his own party.
In the summary of the platform of the Swiss People’s Party for the recent election that I gave you, read through it please, you will see that the main directions of these political actions of this party are to cooperate with the European Union without becoming a member; to maintain their neutrality of Switzerland; to make stricter rules for the immigration in Switzerland. You might know that foreign nationals in Switzerland make about 20% of the total population residing in Switzerland. It is a very high percentage rate. The last main item of his platform is less state and the corollary of it, which is to lower the tax burden.
So, on the base of the distributed papers, I leave it therefore, up to you to forge your own opinion as to the way to qualify this party. Please note here and it is very important that this party supported the bill for a new article in our penal code called Article No. 261 DIS, who is criminally punishing any form of racism and anti-Semitism and this article is now enforced in our penal code since the 1st January 1995. The Swiss People’s Party supported that bill.
The parliamentary elections in Switzerland are characterized by a big success of this party, showing a progression towards the right, that is correct, but there is no such thing in my country as a tidal wave from left to right, not at all. The Swiss foreign policy remains the same, in particular the strategic goal of the government to join the European Union in due time, as well as to become a full member of the United Nations, are not affected.
Now, last point, because in the invitation you wanted to ask me about the possible consequences of this election for the Jewish community in Switzerland. Here, I don’t have much to say, but it is noteworthy to note that the concerns and the fears, which have been expressed in the world media about values of Jewish communities, are coming from abroad, not from the Jewish community in Switzerland. The members of the Swiss Jewish community have all the other politically minded Swiss citizens follow naturally the evolution of the political situation. As major topics concern them directly, like the integration policy of Switzerland into Europe, the protection of the environment, the fears of resurgence of unemployment, the criminality, the drug abuses and the large number of asylum seekers in Switzerland. Just for your information to know that 10% of the total Kosovo or Albanian population from Kosovo lives in Switzerland. 10% of all the Albanian Kosovo population today live in Switzerland.
So, this was the facts I wanted to present to you and with the hopes that they will help you to make up your personal opinion about the political situation in my country, and I thank you so much for your attention.

I am not, of course, in a position to put myself in the place of the Swiss voters, but in 1995 the Social Democratic Party increased its share in the National Counsel by 14 seats. This time the Swiss People’s Party increased its share in the National Counsel by 15 seats. So this kind of jumps like this have nothing unheard of in Switzerland. But the only answer I can give to your question is why so many Swiss voted, not so many, because as I said before 9.8% of the total electorate voted for this party, but he marginal increase of the voters, probably these people have seduced by some of the solutions offered by this party to answer their main concern, but I cannot be more specific than that.

אדוני השגריר, אני רוצה לשאול אותך לא כשגריר
אלא כאזרח שוויצרי, אולי תוכל לתת לנו פרשנות לעובדה שמר בלוכר לפני שנתיים-שלוש יצא בצורה בוטה מאוד נגד החזרת הרכוש היהודי בשוויץ, מהבנקים או מהנשיונל בנק. האם הקמפיין שלו בכיוון הזה נתן לו את הקולות האלה שהוא קיבל עכשיו?

Well here I want to say, first as to the position of Mr. Blocher, you ask him personally or you ask his party. But as to the whole problematic of the role of Switzerland before, during and right after the Second World War, the question of the dormant accounts in the bank, I think you share my opinion and my views that of all the countries concerned with the same or similar situation as Switzerland, that of all the countries, we are the ones who have come forward, I would say, with unprecedented measures, which have been taken in Switzerland.
Just to summarize them quickly, we have first this independent commission of experts, no other country has got one like this, where we have Americans, Israelis, British, Polish and Swiss in the commission with access to any archives. This commission already published an interim report on gold transactions, which was a very factual report and is going to publish, I think it will be the middle of next month, another report about the refugee policy of Switzerland during the war. Believe me, this work is done without complacency.
As to the banks and the banking affairs, an agreement was reached summer last year where the banks are going to pay 1.25 billion dollars, following an agreement between, on the one hand the Swiss banks and on the other hand the World Jewish Restitution Organization and other Jewish organizations and the lawyers of the class actions.
The Swiss Bankers Association has published, and this is also unheard of, the names of all the dormant accounts and I think there will be some more to come soon. A commission of so called eminent person, under the chairmanship of Mr. Volcker, the former chairman of the Fed, has audited every single Swiss bank, which took about two years, it cost a lot of money and the report is going to be published next month, also the final report.
So, in this question of truth, that means to find out what was the truth of justice, that means by the restitution and everything, of solidarity, for example, the Swiss government and the private sector gave this, well created this fund with 200 million dollars for Holocaust survivors, mainly Jewish and some others, and the State of Israel, already now many many, I think it was early this year, I think in January or February got about 60 million dollars of this money and now there is a process to find out how this money was distributed. The procedure has been initiated here.
Now, one of the absolute commitments of the Swiss people and the Swiss government and the Swiss parliament is to go on, on that road of truth, justice and solidarity. So here, you have of course, dissenting voices, like in any democracy, but so far, I can tell you that it is not the dissenting voices in Switzerland, which have their way, it is the others. Is it an answer to y our question?

אני מודה מאוד על התשובה בנושא הזה בקשר
לבנקים, אבל שאלתי הייתה האם הקולות שקיבל אדון בלוכר נובעים מההצהרות שלו נגד העמדה של ממשלת שוויץ למען הסדר נושא החזרת הרכוש.

Here you have to ask the party, because we don’t know what are the motivations for the people to vote for this party. Again, if you refer to the platform of this party, you will see very important topics for Switzerland and for the future Switzerland, which also are probably very strong motivations, given the answers to these problems by the different parties and in particular Swiss parties. People have been attracted by this position or that position or that position. This is democracy.

תודה רבה.
אנחנו מודים לכבוד השגריר, לרעייתו ולכל האורחים שהגיעו לכאן. נמצאים כאן בני נוער ואני חושבת שהיה לכם מעניין לשמוע את ההתמודדויות השונות.

שאלה שבאמת מעסיקה אותנו, ולצערי היא תמשיך להעסיק אותנו, מה באמת ניתן לעשות כדי שכל אדם, כל בן אנוש יחשוב שאסור לו להיות נגד זרים, אסור לו להיות נגד מי ששונה ממנו, אסור לו בשום אופן להיות נגד יהודים והדברים הולכים ביחד. קשה להבין איך אחרי השואה, אחרי הלקחים של השואה, עדיין קיימות תופעות שבכלל אנשים מסוגלים לחשוב שמי ששונה או מי שאחר, צריך לנסות ולהזיז אותו מדרכו של אדם אחר.

אנחנו נמשיך לבדוק ולהתייחס למה שקורה בשוויץ. קיבלנו מהשגריר סקירה איך עובדת שם המערכת ואנחנו מבינים שזו מפלגה שהייתה שותפה בקואליציה במשך כל השנים ואני באמת מאוד מקווה שגם מר בלוכר יעשה איזשהו חשבון נפש שיהיה חינוך בשוויץ, חינוך לערכים שאנחנו מאמינים בהם כולנו ביחד – הייתי אומרת כל בן אנוש – וכולנו נגד שנאת זרים. אנחנו מקווים שחשבון הנפש הזה יתקיים גם בשוויץ ויהיה נחלת כולנו.

תודה רבה לכם.

הישיבה ננעלה בשעה 11:00